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Post by qcomdrj on Oct 9, 2004 14:07:35 GMT -5
This is stupid. Taking away divisions would ruin some of the traditions from baseball. So would the DH, Wildcard, 7 game playoffs, etc. Sports are dynamic, and should change to make the game better. Unfortunately, many people equate better with higher ratings, so they increase offense, hamper defense, make more games, have longer seasons, etc. However, I think they should make the game have a little more parity, because when one division is 10 games behind the other two, it seems like they are having a problem.
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Post by qcomdrj on Oct 5, 2004 0:47:32 GMT -5
I don't know that Sisler had an advantage, he did hit .407 that year. There is a reason they named the award after Cy Young. (I know he didn't play in 1920, but still). All I am saying is that they have season records from before 1898 when they went to 154, why not have ones from before 1961 when they went to 162? Lots of columnists compare Ichiro to Sisler, so I don't think either of them would have been incredibly different if they played in the other's era. And apparently the current style of play suits Ichiro or he wouldn't have hit 262 this season. Had he hit .407 he would have blasted the record to bits.
As for postseason stats counting for career stats, it would take making the playoffs every year for 8 years, and playing the full 21 games to equal one more season of regular season play. They should still count for career stats, because the player actually did perform. It seems like it unfairly hurts players such as Jeter who have some pretty good postseason stats, and those mean nothing in the grand scheme.
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Post by qcomdrj on Oct 4, 2004 22:42:32 GMT -5
He's right about postseason not counting for career stats (which is beyond retarded). Apparently Baseball hasn't gotten the memo that people actually play those games too, and should reap the benefits. Even college football counts postseason stats.
My examples aren't dumb, I was just showing that your logic was flawed. It still is.
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Post by qcomdrj on Oct 4, 2004 5:12:06 GMT -5
I've listened to everything you said. You said the season being 8 games longer isn't an advantage. Then you said that counting the playoffs is stupid because there are more games and that would be an advantage. Then you said that they were different eras. When I argued that they were different eras, you said they weren't, because having an old era stat would cheapen Ichiro's.
Your problem is that you can't pick one side and stick with it. And you're only through with the argument because you can't win, because apparently you see it as some sort of mental handicap if you lose.
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Post by qcomdrj on Oct 3, 2004 22:39:59 GMT -5
When you admit you're arguing two sides of the same argument. John Kerry. If it's an advantage to Ichiro playing more games in a season with playoffs, it's an advantage to Ichiro playing more games in the same season. Same difference.
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Post by qcomdrj on Oct 3, 2004 20:24:12 GMT -5
Really, cause playoff stats count for career stats. So why wouldn't they count for the season? Same calendar year and all. So why do you think they shouldn't count? Would the extra games possibly give someone AN ADVANTAGE?
Cause I think they would, given some people could play 21 more games.
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Post by qcomdrj on Oct 3, 2004 17:33:57 GMT -5
Oh, I thought of another way that the Ichiro season argument can be debunked. Why don't playoff games count for hit totals? It's part of the season. Just because one team might get more games than another shouldn't matter, because it's one season.
See?
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Post by qcomdrj on Oct 3, 2004 1:20:13 GMT -5
First, the reason you keep hearing the same thing is because you don't actually answer it. Your total reasoning is that one season is one season, regardless of how many games in it. Does the 1994 strike shortened season count?
I'm all for dropping it, because this is never going to get anywhere, but maybe it will pad our post count so we can beat tigerbait this month.
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Post by qcomdrj on Oct 2, 2004 20:00:01 GMT -5
no, your point is that 8 extra games are an advantage, and i'm saying that there is no way to know whether they are or not so why should we make two seperate records? how is that fair to ichiro or anybody else that breaks a record like that, it's a season record and ichiro broke it, it's that simple and i don't know what much else i can say It's not that simple. There are already two records for every record. What difference would 3 make. And 8 extra games are an advantage, because at the 154 game mark, Ichiro didn't have 257 hits. Was he saving up for the playoff push? I think not. And if you had new records, they would be the one's people remember anyway.
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Post by qcomdrj on Oct 2, 2004 16:40:18 GMT -5
because that's like saying that sisler holds the real record No, a different record. They already have records from before they went to the 154 game season. I don't see you complaining about those. And it doesn't make it fair to give someone 8 more games. Or perhaps fair means something else to you. You didn't refute any of my statements, I think this is an emotional debate now.
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Post by qcomdrj on Oct 2, 2004 1:45:14 GMT -5
because the number of games have nothing to do with it, it is most hits in a season it doesn't matter how many games were played because they were both full seasons, and it's not fair to ichiro to just give sisler the benefit of the doubt when we have no idea what kind of competition there was 84 years ago, did you notice that the 20's have all of the 250 hit seasons in major league history? there's more than likely a reason for that Ok, first, to prove that I think he should still get the record (most modern era hits in a season), allow me to ask this. If the season is full, and it doesn't matter how long, then should Japan take Ichiro's record and make it theirs? He holds the record for hits in a 130 game season in Japan (with 210 hits). But if it was a full season, shouldn't they just go ahead and take this new one, even though there were 32 more games here? And at what difference in seasons do you start making differences. What if Sisler's record was in a 129 game season, like the 1890 Brooklyn Trolley Dodgers (thankfully L.A. doesn't keep that part of the name)? And Sisler still has more hits per game at 1.69. Ichiro will have to hit 271 to beat that. If you want to nitpick. His line from that year is 257 H, 49 2B, 18 3B, 19 HR, and 122 RBI, for a total of 399 bases. Ichiro's is 259 H, 24 2B, 5 3B, 8 HR, and 60 RBI for 317 bases. One of these was the juiced ball era, but has bigger gloves and astroturf. The other isn't. That's why you can't compare them, and they should have separate lines. Oh, and there were 7 250 hit seasons, 1930 (254) (250), 1925 (253), 1929 (254), 1920 (257), 1922 (250), and 2004 (??). I really wouldn't call that a lot, considering. More of those than 60 HR seasons. This years ERA leader is .227, 1920 was .190. The game wasn't that different. It involved a 90 ft square diamond, 9 players, and a batter. Sisler's record shouldn't be second.
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Post by qcomdrj on Oct 1, 2004 20:45:55 GMT -5
One record doesn't do justice. Kind of like saying that a 15-0 team was better than a 14-0 team. You can't compare them directly, so let them each have their own stat line. It's not Sisler's fault baseball increased the number of games, why reduce his stat?
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Post by qcomdrj on Oct 1, 2004 8:49:41 GMT -5
But throwing Sisler's record away, or putting it second is? Make a new era record. Keep Sisler's as the 154 game season record. Babe Ruth should have the 154 game HR record, because nobody beat him either. That's the thing, nobody knows if it could have been done, but everyone seems to say that the benefit of the doubt falls on the new guys. Remember, the game has been changed to increase the offense (smaller strike zone, closer fences). It's a tossup.
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Post by qcomdrj on Oct 1, 2004 1:04:12 GMT -5
i don't get what you're trying to say, are you saying ichiro's a selfish player? are you saying that because ichiro doesn't hit for power that means he can't be a great player? ichiro is a leadoff man, his job is to get on base anyway he can, if he can't hit for power then he can't hit for power but don't turn that into a diss of his game, 256+ hits is unheard of in this era of homeruns and relief pitchers, he should be getting his proper respect for that None of that. I only sort of cracked on his lack of even warning track power. However, him getting on base hasn't helped the numbers 2-4 guys get any more hits, unlike in previous years (such as the one where they set the wins record). I never said he was selfish, just that people emphasizing this are missing the team aspect of the game. Notice the other records I referenced and try to refute them. I know he gets the hits probably because he isn't trying to put it over the fence like most of the BALCO guys. Tit for tat though, in his first 154 games this year, he was 7 behind the record. Just like Maris, the asterisk should stand. They have modern era records for ones set after 1898, why not just keep both stats. I think he deserves the stat for most hits in a season of 162 games, but that other guy deserves to keep his stat too. They shouldn't move him down to number 2, because nobody knows how many he would have gotten over the next 8 games if their season was the same length.
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Post by qcomdrj on Sept 30, 2004 22:18:15 GMT -5
The point I'm trying to make is that teams with players setting records don't do well typically.
McGuire when he set the HR Record. Bonds when he set it. Sosa when he was going for it. Ichiro trying to get the most hits. Ripken going for the most consecutive games.
How many of those are teams that went at all, or very far into the playoffs? (Ripken at the end of the streak, I know they went to the ALCS in 96 or so). I don't mind people wanting to put players on a pedestal, but its a TEAM SPORT. They aren't helping the team, they're hurting it. Why else would the Rangers suddenly play better WITHOUT THEIR "BEST" PLAYER?
And simply put, yes, if the season ended at 154 games, Ichiro wouldn't have hit as many. He would have been 7 behind. Singles are hits, but that other guy had many more extra base hits. I will have to give props to Ichiro in this era of juiced balls to lack the ability to hit the long ball. He also does position hits well, and keeps away from people. Many of his hits come from his speed though, and running out the throw, not from hitting it. SI has a picture showing where all his hits are. There are way too many of them in the infield.
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